**Mirrors / Alternative Angles** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*


I bet Liverpool PR team have had a word with Sadio Mane already, would send quite the waves if he were to say something.


I assume and right now hope that most if not all PL clubs have their players accounts on lock through social media firms.


Hopefully not. Expose them. Let them be open bigots so I can hate them. Edit: hate is the wrong word. I should have said belittle.


I'd be absolutely shocked to find out that they're not. They're openly members of a religion that are openly anti gay.


i wonder if he texted gueye or something in private to support him. makes you wonder what these people are really like in real life.


>i wonder if he texted gueye or something in private to support him. makes you wonder what these people are really like in real life. you should read evra book.


I know this is cheeky, but I don't have the book. Any particular insights about this kind of thing?


He basically said every dressing room he experienced was openly homophobic and had at least some players outright stating that they didn’t want gay people in there. Also that every team he’s been on had closeted gay players who confided in him but never came out to the team.


Thats super sad


Thank you. Unfortunately I'm not surprised at all. Footballers are a random cross section of global male society and most of society has a long way to go in terms of accepting homosexuality. I think a lot of us live in our little echo chambers and are shocked by things that are unfortunately the norm in a global sense


I'd say part of the problem is they are *not* a random cross section. They are a group that may not be the brightest, or at least the most educated, as they laser focused on sport, and that have generally be brought up from a very, very young age in a masculine, hyper competitive, closed environment.


You're absolutely correct. Furthers my point that we are shocked by what is probably unfortunately quite normal because we place so much value on a person being on the TV screen


Uncle Pat is quality, whats the book called i'd love to read it


"I love this game" What else was it going to be called.


"Fuck that bitch Suarez"?


"I like raw chicken"?


i did, that's why this stuff makes me think twice all the time. it was a great book.


No way that's possible. He has a broken iphone screen. He's one of us!


Loyal to their mates and probably hold beliefs similar to people of their education levels and family backgrounds wherever they grew up Public castigation of gueye probably also drawing him a lot of support too


It's why we shouldn't idolize them. We don't know them. Appreciate their talent and their charitable actions, which Mané has done a lot of, but don't assume they think or believe in the same things you do. Even though they live in LGBT tolerant countries, they were still born in an intolerant country.


They are famous for kicking a ball not for being smart studied or cultured, pay no attention to anything they do off pitch


Charles Barkley: “I am not a role model.”


“Wayne Hennessey is ‘desperate’ to learn about Nazis, says Roy Hodgson.”


It's why I never understood celebrity worship. They are just people, only with shitloads more money than us. I mean ffs, look at what happened with a certain c u next tuesday from our team who shall not be named.


It's ok, you can say cunt












Chelsea and Liverpool busy taping Mendy and Mane's mouths shut and changing their social media passwords


We're not sure if Mendy is Muslim. At the Club World Cup, he didn't go with Sarr, Ziyech, Kante or Rudiger to the mosque in Abu Dhabi https://twitter.com/LDNFootbalI/status/1492110565824737284?ref\_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1492110565824737284%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1\_&ref\_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.chelsea-news.co%2F2022%2F02%2Fimage-four-of-chelseas-muslim-players-make-visit-to-impressive-mosque-in-abu-dhabi%2F


Maybe he was the one who clicked the picture


I'm just worried that they're privately supporting Gueye


Realistically a very, very large proportion of players from either religious, conservative, or non-western cultural backgrounds will privately support Gueye.


They will support Gueye but not gay


why are you gueye


who says im gueye


You are gueye!


So who is gueye?


do you perform the natural obligation?




Also though, one of the least homophobic countries in the world and becoming more accepting each day.


We're not perfect but still a hell of a lot better than 99% of countries in earth. Gay marriage was only made legal 6/7 years ago, it'll take a while for old school attitudes to change.


Gay marriage was made legal in 2003 (we were the second country to do it or third I don't know) in Belgium but homophobia is still rife. What a shame.


Even western.


Unfortunately I think that's their most likely stance on this. Salah too


Maybe in private but both Mane and Salah wore rainbow laces when asked.


Interesting you say that because December 2021 was the last time players were supposed to wear rainbow laces, and going through match pictures on the PL site for that month and no players (either team) appear to be wearing rainbow laces in Liverpool games. Edit: Looked at more pictures and it seems like Hendo and Klopp did, but can't be sure on any other players.


I can only think of Klopp and Henderson actively supporting rainbow laces.


When did they do that?


When asked


why tf am I laughing at this


thank you for clarification!


Cheers, Geoff


Surely you’ve got bigger things to worry about?


Worried? Why


They obviously do.


I know that homophobia is rampant in most of the world but I still think it's wrong to assume an individual is homophobic just because they're African until we actually hear them say something. Just for example I have a Nigerian friend who arrived here about 15 years ago. He'll be the first to tell you he was homophobic when he arrived here but over time his mind has really opened and he's accepting of everybody now. I'd hate to think someone would assume he is homophobic on account of the colour of his skin and his accent because it's not true and is actually just racist stereotyping.


Some week that the Blackpool player came out. Nice touch.


Tbh I'm glad there's more controversy over some players being anti lgbt than any real controversy over a player being gay Nobody really seemed to care too much that your lad is gay which is progress at least


I'm really not trying to sound arrogant when I say this, but the reason why it's not talked about more is because it's a youth player from a second division club. If a top-tier player came out, people would definitely care, which is exactly why you don't see it happening often: it gives them too much visibility, and in return, too much hatred. Another reason to praise the lad's bravery I think.


Yeah thats obviously a factor but I think even the news of a premiership footballer would die down quickly enough. Like there's really not much to say about it. You can say fair play or you can sound like a massive homopobe. I'm not really sure if that's anything that would fall in between. There's not really a conversation to be had.


I agree with you that it's atleast a good thing that Gueye is seen as the controversial one and not the lad(guy is a freaking hero) who came out.


If a player of Salah's level came out, I bet we would see a lot more hell break loose.


Imagine Salah coming out. Egypt would revolt.


Would lead to an awkward convo with his wife


I don't think Gueye knows Blackpool even exist tbh. Can you name a tier 3 French club?




Why are they using the fact they are Africa champions like an argument in those posts?


I guess in an attempt to give it more credibility, like “we’re the champs, how could we be wrong”. Or he’s just trying to show his connection to Gueye.


Sadly this idea that “success” legitimizes anything is only getting more prevalent in the world these days.


The message is "See? Homophobia is a winning strategy"


Think it's just meant as a symbol of togetherness with his teammate


Sadio’s post: why are u gae?


"I refuse to participate in this campaign against racism towards black people" - Koulibaly: "Woooahh you racist, football is full of racists". "I refuse to participate in this campaign against discrimination towards lgbt people". Koulibaly: "respect bro"


You said, Kendrick, ain't no room for contradiction


Top of the morning Top of the morning Top of the morning Top of the morning


Koulibaly needs to listen to Auntie Diaries expeditiously


nice use of 'expeditiously'


Love that song


The last verse with the increase in instrumental intensity is amazing.


Not much I love more than hiphop crossing into r/soccer


Bro I’ve read several critics talking shit on his use of slurs in it, missing the entire point of the song. I thought it was a really insightful bit of self analysis on internalized homophobia/transphobia. I also think the bit where he admits his own hypocrisy at the end was really effective and will change how some kids (particularly black kids) see using the slur, by comparing it to how white kids saying the n word makes them feel. I think it’s sort of like getting upset by the use of the n word in huck Finn. It’s being used to critique culture on a realistic, authentic level. Could he have done it with a few less f bombs? Maybe, but anyone with half a brain realizes the message of the song is antithetical to that sort of hate, and the term is being used as an emblem of bigotry he’s criticizing. I think, with the prevalence of homophobia in hip hop, we should be encouraging thoughtful, self critical shit like that song, not trying to problematize every little thing. And all of my gay friends ive asked about the track have said essentially the same thing.


I like how both replies are Kendrick Lamar references


How so?


when I commented there were only two replies and both referred to a song on Kendrick’s new album where he makes a similar comparison


Oh shit he has a new album??? Damn I had no idea Do you happen to know which song?


Auntie Diaries, as one of the comments noted


I've had to hook up medical grade copium to my veins. But seriously, very disappointing to see this from, frankly, my idol at Napoli thanks to his behaviour. I shouldn't be surprised though, the Abrahamic religions and anything LGBTQ+ are not exactly happy bedfellows...


Kalidou made you think about it….but he is not your savior


Theyre all charlatans when it comes down to it. We've spent years taking knees against racism, made it a central feature prior to games, anyone who is ousted as a racist is immediately blackballed. All indicative of progress in British football. And then something like this happens where people all pretend to be shocked that backwards people still hold backwards views. There would be international outcry if Harry Maguire came out as a racist and received support from endless England players and the British government. Yet Gueye is receiving support from his countrymen and his government for being a backwards cretin. I'm legit done taking these peoples "woes" seriously until they join us in the current century. Fuck em.


Does that mean racist fans in stadiums have a right to be respected too, Koulibaly? After all that is their choice to be racist cunts, no, of course not, sometimes choices of people shouldn't be respected because they are bigoted.


>Does that mean racist fans in stadiums have a right to be respected too "No not the same" him probably


Not entirely the same, if everyone with these prejudices silently refused to participate it would actually be progress from where we are currently (sadly)


Pretty sure dogma doesn't subscribe to that sort of critical thinking




Damn. I never knew racism didn't exist in Asia, Africa, South America, and Australia


This dude never been in asia. Might be the worst racism over there of them all.


Exactly, you can’t blame a Russian person for wanting to abolish black rights. After all, it’s their culture?🤡🤡


Dont tolerate the intolerant!


This is becoming a very big issue.


Arsenal don't mind, the banter stopped overnight.


Nowhere is safe and I love that.


Memory of a goldfish you have eh?


Homophobia has been an issue much much longer than LGBT+ has been accepted


The issue is that we have a society which has forced acceptance of everything. You can't question someone's religion, you can't question their personal beliefs, but a lot of them directly conflict with the message of equality and inclusiveness we're trying to promote. It goes back to the whole plaster over a much bigger problem argument. These complex, deep routed issues need proper discussion, not half arsed symbols and signals.


They’re very concerned with Gueye’s decision being respected yet no word on whether LGBTQ+ people deserve respect.


Probably because they don’t respect them


Exactly. You’ll see people preaching tolerance on here for Gueye and all this but what they really mean is “well you guys are all about tolerance and acceptance, so tolerate this stuff while we don’t reciprocate that tolerance and acceptance for LGBTQ+ people”. And I do believe we should be tolerant, but we’ve got to realise the double standard and call it out.


Paradox of intolerance If you tolerate intolerance, it will eventually win out, so to have a world free of intolerance, we have to be intolerant of intolerance And now I can’t read the word tolerance anymore




No don’t say that, all the homophobes will get mad at you for calling them out.


I think we're seeing now why there are so few coming outs of footballers. Imagine you share a locker room with someone who refuses to play because of rainbow shirt. Football has big issue with homophobia.


isn't it more of men's football?


Yes you make a good point. A lot of openly gay women in football.


That stems from gender stereotypes. Sport is generally stereotyped as “manly”, gay men are seen as less manly, so “don’t belong” playing football. It’s reversed for women, lesbians are often stereotyped as butch and manly and thus belong playing football, to the point that if you were a sporty girl at school you were often assumed to be a lesbian. It’s built into those stereotypes that it’s easier to come out as a lesbian in football. For the record, all of the above sucks, but that’s generally why it has ended up that way.


It also leads to the fascinating scenario where a lot of gay women end up being interested in football to the point where LGBTQ women are overrepresented in women's football compared to the general population. It's fascinating if you ask me.


Let's not also forget women's game is very new, so most players are from western nations. Expect honophobia etc to increase once catchments are global a la the mens game


One would hope though that the fact that the women's game is so open and forward about being welcoming to LGBTQ means even if they regress a little from broader catchment, it won't be nearly as bad as it is in men's football. I think it'll be helped by how the women's game tends to attract more family based crowds and is generally not as intense or aggressive in its fan culture.


Yes let's hope that - but certainly if Senegal has a golden generation of women we could see scenes like this. Perhaps not, I don't know.


Can't speak for elsewhere, but in the US, the NWSL has a number of queer and lesbian players. At least one homophobic player who did the same thing Gueye did has a job just because she's a good footballer, though, so it isn't perfect.


Disheartening that Carli Lloyd went on Hope Solo’s podcast and completely told on herself. To absolutely no one’s surprise Hope Solo agreed with Carli.


From what Meg Linehan has said, Carli's been suspect for a long time. And yeah nobody's surprised by Solo LOL


Whoa, what happened. How did I miss this?


They kept calling the “culture” within the team extremely toxic. Carli specified that within the last seven years it was the worst. Outside of calling Megan Rapinoe a bully they just kept beating around the bush and talking about “culture.” They used a lot of words to get the message across that they didn’t like that players started using their voices to support LGBTQ+ and minority rights. Mind you Carli Lloyd won a WC and captained the team during that period where the toxicity was apparently the worst. Not to mention she was granted her wish to be traded to her preferred NWSL team and had an entire retirement tour with the USWNT. As a captain some of that surely falls on your shoulders but even still it seems like from the outside everyone respected her.


There was also the Jaelene Hinkle/Daniels situation a couple years ago where she didn’t participate in a national match where they wore rainbow numbered kits, didn’t get called up again after and then went on the 700 club (extremist-Christian show) painting herself as a victim. She retired a couple years ago but seems to be back. Crazy when the success and the people who are trying to make conditions better for women’s soccer/football in the states are apart of the LGBTQ+ community as well as the fan side of the sport as well


Ya no shit! The LGBTQ community is the main funding source for the NWSL.


Also why it is so important to have figures like Jake Daniels coming out publicly, and giving them masses amounts of support when they do. It needs to be normalised in the community for everyone to feel safe and enjoy the sport.


It can't be normalized until it becomes apparent that it's safe to come out in the first place. The first few people to come out will and should be praised for it to show that they are welcomed into the community. After that it becomes easier to normalize it.


So if i were to not support him next time he is abused because of his skin color, he would be fine?


"Racism is my culture, respect it please 🙏 "


Millwall tifo that.


Argentine football culture please some respect 🙏🏻


Es parte del folklore


Brexit football 🔥🔥


~~Not~~ All Lives Matter


Isn’t this literally what some Italian team official fan group said to some players that were absused during a game lmao? I remember the Czechs saying something similar when England FA criticed the racist absuse to their players during games.


Lmao sounds like someone from Verona would say. When they got promoted to Serie A, they were chanting "we're an amazing team, shaped like a swastika, what a nice thing, being coached by Rudolf Hess" [source](https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2019/06/07/news/_siamo_una_squadra_a_forma_di_svastica_il_coro_nazi_degli_ultra_del_verona_finisce_in_procura-228138889/) Sadly the city has this reputation of being racists, and ultras aren't missing any chance they have to reiterate that stereotype since the 1980s


"Your choices must be respected and not interpreted🙌"


You already know the answer, rules for thee not for me.


'Your choices must be respected' ? Why ?


Yeah, at best they must be tolerated but respect is something you earn. Koulibaly himself made a choice here that i tolerate but i will never respect him


Poor lads, they're so oppressed, they just want to be able to oppress others without consequence


Sums up the whole LGBT vs respecting beliefs debate. It isn't my queer ass fault that Islam teaches its followers to hate the gays. Why should I respect their opinion? I respect their right to have an opinion, but I do not respect him or any of these assholes who've come out in favour of Gueye. Homophobic twats.


I will never understand people who call for uncivil ideas to be met with civil resistance.


Precisely lol. This isn't a grey debate it's pretty fucking clear who the bigots are.


My daughter is gay and gets met with all sorts of slurs at school for simply existing. She does not owe the people who hate her for existing one single iota of respect.


So sorry she has to go through that. I only left school two years ago so I can relate to that. It's horrific and I agree we don't owe these people anything.


A lot of footballers telling on themselves


Muslims being incredibly homophobic isn't the revelation you think it is


"Telling on themselves" Lol as if anyone with two braincells to rub together doesn't already know that hardline religious people and LGBTQ just aren't compatible whatsoever. Honestly all this just highlights how naive Redditors are. If you want football to be political you are going to end up seeing a lot of opinions you disagree with.


Some years ago when they begin to wear rainbows armbands and jerseys, a show in France called J+1 went around asking players what the rainbows stand for and the vast majority of them didn’t even knew it was against homophobia. Plus the whole « im injured just in time to not wear the raimbows thing » seem pretty common in France at least.


Just like people being surprised when they see a footballer being stupid af (cf the recent Grealish vid) They're not the most educated and smart persons out here, they just play football well.


To be fair tho that Grealish vid was a whole new level of stupid. I don’t expect footballers to be a bunch of geniuses but there are incredibly stupid people who can at the very least recognise a map of their country


I have to believe he was joking. If not he might have some real intellectual impairment


It’s entirely possible. But given the totally deadpan and serious way he played it (his follow up, on being asked to point out where he was born on said map, was along the lines of, “I haven’t got a clue mate”) combined with the fact Grealish is a known moron makes me think that the guy is genuinely just that thick


Anyone who says respect their opinion is basically saying they agree with it at this point considering he hasn't got punished or anything


Maybe he should come out and make a statement then so people stop "interpreting" his actions.


Granted there's some degree of wider interpretation that may not be representative of how he feels, but the main takeaway from any angle is that he felt strongly enough about the event & campaign to take himself out of contention. The basics are clear - he doesn't agree with the campaign. And yes Kalidou, we can interpret that.


He's not even being persecuted people are just saying he doesn't like gay people which is true. You can't have your cake and eat it too


I hate this shite that I have to respect everyone's opinion I can acknowledge it, but I don't have to respect it, especially is it's an opinion as fucking stupid as this


I think he's got the right to an opinion, but you don't have a right to be respected necessarily. I'd guess I've got a whole lot of opinions that he wouldn't respect at all, for instance. But the difference ultimately is that when you put yourself forward as someone in the public sphere, while you're entitled to opinions, when your opinions cause headaches for your bosses, that's where you run into issues. And I'd take a wild guess that PSG, the French League and a lot of his sponsors are going to have issues with those opinions. As, quite simply, they are not opinions that are respected by a large part of their customer base either.


You don’t have the right to an opinion that a group of people should have less rights than other people


I mean, you can hold that opinion but don't be surprised if there are a lot of people who think that you're a piece of shit for doing so.


You *can* hold that opinion, yes. It by definition does make you a piece of shit though. People who think someone’s a piece of shit for not supporting human rights is correct.


Yes you do. And others are free to tell you that you're an asshole and that your opinion should not be respected.


Just for trolling (I know what you mean) but children have less rights than adults (for example, no right to vote) and thinking that this is right doesn't make you an asshole.


Is it surprising to you guys that muslim people are homophobic?


Exactly this isn't exactly shocking news, I've grown up with Muslims who drink and smoke but homosexuality is where the line is drawn so it's no surprise


Smoking tobacco is normal. Lots of Muslim countries have a high percentage of smokers since alcohol isn't allowed. Pork is usually a deal breaker.


Maybe it shouldn't be, but I will always try to believe the best in anybody until the believe otherwise. Also, when some of these players have taken strong stances against other forms of discrimination, I thought there might be some more sympathy and understanding.


Question for everyone who's saying that Gueye can do anything he wants I have a scenario. Barry Swan, 50 caps for England and an important player for club and country refuses to play in game where the players kneel and refuses to wear the black armbands. This comes out and in the coming days his international and club teammate John Deere comes out in support of him. Then his international captain Bernard Matthews comes out in support as well. Would you be ok with these players at your club or would you want their respective contracts torn up? Because I know what I would want if these players played for my club. These views are antiquated and should not be allowed in the modern game as it gatekeeps the game.


Nobody should be forced to kneel. I am black and despise that kneeling rubbish. How about you punish those that racially abuse or abuse trans people. What happens to the laws of the country?


Gueye must hate the fact his name sounds like gay


I'm a bit ootl here, but did all he did just like refuse to wear a jersey right? Or did he go all the way and make some deregatory statement? Wouldnt it similiar to refuse the anthem kneeling thing? Or refusing to wear certain sponsor. Him not wearing it should not count as him wanting all lgbt community dead or something (unless, he did all the way make that statement)


He refused to play outright. Although i doubt he'd be allowed to play without the rainbow numbers. Almost everyone is agreeing he is within his rights to refuse to wear the shirt but they are also pointing out he's a hypocrite for wearing alcohol and gambling sponsorship which oppose his religious belief and also criticising his views in general for being outdated.


one difference with not taking the knee is that you can still go about your job, even if the player refused it


Why are you Gueye


Nice double standards from someone who is so active against racism. Edit. Downvote all you want but Koulibaly was the one saying people in his position should do everything in their power to help the fight against discrimination. I hope you're able to see the difference between what Koulibaly preaches and saying Gueye's choices should be respected.


Completely agree with you. Am disappointed with KK.


Reddit discovers that non-Western cultures hold non-Western views on sexuality and marriage. More at 11.


This is just shadowboxing at this point. It could've been understandable if there was some sort of action taken against him for not wearing it. What is the point of asking for more support if nobody is against him in the first place.


Napoli fans having a bruh moment rn, me included


Lol they all are same. That's why never idealise sportspersons these days. They are just playing for money. They don't give shit about equality


That's why i idealise Albrighton, he doesn't have a active public social media account and nobody ever interviews him, perfect!




i don't even think that it has to do much with sportspersons. They come from a pretty religious african country. It should be obvious that they all have these bigoted ideas


Lmao that's a pathetic excuse that doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny. Koulibaly was born and grew up in a French village in the Vosges, he doesn't come from Sénégal and never lived there in his life. He chose to represent them at 23 after playing for France's youth teams because his parents from there, that's it.


He's a Muslim. That says enough.


That’s literally their job though lol


Maybe the problem is that we are expecting way too much from people who only really care about kicking ball and making their money, Gueye never said a word about anything at all, he just abstained from the match and the world came down on him, pretty weird to me.


Man aren't these guys lucky that they can 'choose' to support or not to support something, when they themselves have quite likely been victims of discrimination based on something about themselves that was not a choice, but a biological fact.


No one needs to respect someone's conscious decision to be a bell end


To be honest, it's not like he said anything against gay people. He just didn't show up to wear a rainbow writing. If he has said a homophobic word, it would be different. Same with BLM movement. If someone didn't support this movement, it didn't mean they were racist.


This might be an unpopular take but I think Idrissa Gueye has every right to decline to wear the shirt if he feels that it goes against his beliefs to endorse something he doesn't personally agree with or at the very least, is reluctant to endorse given how Senegal feels about homosexuality for example. He's not been openly homophobic, he's just choosing not to support something. It's not the same but it's a bit like Pogba moving the Heineken bottle at the Euros, he does not want to be seen as supporting something his faith is against. We're essentially forcing support on someone, in the name of equality, which is wrong. You don't win people over that way and not supporting something is not opposition, it's a neutral stance. I'm personally supportive of LGBT+ rights but I'm also supportive of people being able to think and believe in what they want to believe in. As long as they're not being actively discriminative to people based on different variables then it is a non-issue.