By - Swoliosis123
I've always rooted for Howard. Well, maybe not in the first couple of episodes, but for the majority of the show. Howard has consistently been a pretty solid dude. A bit elitist and perhaps judging of Jimmy - but for understandable reasons. Hell, Howard was way more in Jimmy's corner than Chuck ever was. Howard gave Jimmy a shot when Chuck wouldn't.
What gives off the impression that he's elitist? He's a successful guy but doesn't (didn't :/) seem the type to look down on people
yeah he was actually very nice to his employees most of the time, even in the last episode with the soda guy
Howard and Cliff box Irene into a corner so they may influence her decision not to settle. Then they literally wheel her out into the conference room like a game piece. Better Call Saul understands the charm, the cunning, and the tenaciousness of elites in society. It also understands that they’re often more interested in the games they play with each other than the good they could be doing for those without power.
Doesn't the chumminess that exists between "opposing" counsels come off with some irony? The prestigious law offices of Albuquerque spin their wheels on the whims of their Wachtell sized clients, even when it threatens to uproot the lives of ordinary people like Acker.
Howard wasn't elitist. He was elite. That's what Kim grew to hate and resent. She wanted to make him proud, just like Jimmy wanted to make Chuck proud. But when she finally established herself on the partner track at Schweikart, she realized the approval she had been chasing made her an adversary toward the very people she wanted to help.
For the record, Kim and Jimmy are bastards for what they did, and any reason they used to justify it was bullshit. They got off on it.
I like Howard. I think he's a real stand up guy, doing his best to do good by the people around him. Namaste.
I didn’t like how he treated Kim with doc review and thought he was snobby/fake, but he didn’t deserve this at all. And the last 2 seasons showed a very human side of Howard. But he always rooted for Jimmy but took the brunt of the blame for Chuck’s actions.
I always rooted (not fully but was hoping for the best) for Jimmy and Kim. But the scene of them having sex after ruining Howard is disguising. They really do get off to this in a literal sense.
Howards death is going to haunt them forever. No wonder Jimmy is afraid of the cartel so much in BB.
>*But the scene of them having sex after ruining Howard is disguising. They really do get off to this in a literal sense.*
I mean we kinda knew this since season 1 ? It really shouldn't be surprising now.
1. The first time we really see Kim : Howard asks her about Jimmy, Kim denies being Jimmy's friend and says she doesn't talk to him anymore. Hamlin shows Jimmy's billboard + the video of Jimmy "saving" the guy "that just happened to fall like that ( not )", and Kim smiles.
2. Their relationship started in early Season 2. Jimmy asked if it would work if he doesn't take Cliff's job ---> spends a week at Marco, returns and scams the investment banker with Kimmy ( first time Viktor + Giselle ) to get him to pay the ultra expensive Zafiro with the sharp bottlestopper. Directly afterwards they share their first kiss and started their relationship.
3. Tons of moments of sexual attraction by Kim after Jimmy did a scam since then.
4. When the relationship turned sour after Jimmy got suspended ( the whole split screen montage where they drift apart ) it was the scam to get Huel out of trouble that rekindled their passion.
Kim always got off on it.
Jimmy didn't need scams to feel attracted to Kim.
It's heavily implied they were already in a relationship during Jimmy's mailroom days. They share a kiss when Jimmy announced he passed the bar.
Yes and no.
It's quite clear that in Season 1 there is 0 sexual interest.
Jimmy explicitly asked Kim "can this work with us ( implying a relationship ) if I don't take the job at Cliff ?" and "Is this happening" ?
During the Mailroom they may have been in a relationship or just Friends with Benefits, whatever they had in this flashback, it's no longer the case by Season 1.
Their relationship started officially in early Season 2 directly after the Zafiro Scam.
Did you only selectively read my comment ?
>*When Jimmy calls her late at night about the Kettlemans, she says she's not in the mood for phone sex as if this happened before. She also asks if he used his robot sex voice on the Kettlemans.*
Yes and as I said in my past comment, "During the mailroom ( or just generally in the past ) they may have been in a relationship or just Friends with Benefits".What you said isn't an argument against what I said said, but rather helping my argument....Likewise your very last sentence the kiss in the bar, also supporting what I said. They were in some sort of relationship but they were no longer by Season 1....
>*Also, you don't just ask a good friend "is this happening" without context.*
Yes.... and the context was literally the words before or even when Jimmy asks if it is possible Jimmy can date her.
Transcript Season 2 Episode 1 :
>*I just, um \[clears throat\]*
>*Listen, here's the thing.*
>*If I take this job,*
>*does that mean the two of us...*
>*I mean, uh...*
>*Does it mean, uh...*
>*What? What... What the hell is this?*
>*If I take this job today,*
>*with Davis and Main*
>*\[clears throat\] does*
>*that mean that you and me...*
>***Is this... Is this gonna happen?***
>*One thing has absolutely*
>*nothing to do with the other.*
>*Nothing at all.*
>*Of course not. Why would it?*
Consider how he stutters, how nervous he is.It is VERY CLEAR they were not in a relationship when Jimmy asked that.
The "**Is this happening**" is directly referencing to this context of Season 2, where Jimmy asks if it is possible that he could date her without taking the job.
What no way.. they clearly were just friends. Otherwise why would Jimmy say "So is this happening?"
I think maybe ex FWB at least in the mailroom days.
Nah, he probably had a crush on her, but they were not hooking up. When they finally hooked up it was pretty obvious that it was the first time.
>It's heavily implied they were already in a relationship during Jimmy's mailroom days.
Friends yes, but not a sexual relationship. That only happens after the Ken Wins scam.
We definitely do not know at all whether that was the first time they slept together
I always thought they were ex's that broke up on good terms since the begining of the show, can't remember any hint but I definitively sensed that vibe.
He made her his new Marco
There is no way they were not banging all along.
Even though Howard’s death wasn’t directly their fault, they deserve to be haunted by it after what they did. Especially since they wouldn’t feel any guilt otherwise. Howard had his flaws, but he was a decent man trying to improve himself. Jimmy and Kim practically ruined his reputation, for no good reason. They just didn’t like the guy and wanted to knock him down. Like you said, they not only celebrated, but had sex to the sound of Howard being humiliated. They’re horrible people. Still amazing characters, but goddamn man.
>. Jimmy and Kim practically ruined his reputation, for no good reason
It COST them money to do it. And even taking into account the time-value of money, I'm sure the lower settlement cost them a ton.
Because they enjoy pulling off schemes. It’s pretty obvious that they don’t have any practical or moral reasons for doing this. Saul loves pulling off a successful con. And for Kim, she legitimately gets horny after one. Seriously, the first time we know of where they had sex was after the Viktor and Giselle stunt where they got that one asshole to spend hundreds of dollars on their drinks. Only that was a not too harmful stunt on a pretentious jerk. This was them ruining the reputation of a good man who even offered Saul a job at his company.
Oh yeah for sure, that's my point. They basically spent like a million dollars to embarrass/ruin Howard.
it also cost Kim that job she was on her way to interview for
Well, not exactly, the faster sandpiper settlement caused by this will bring in a net positive.
>It COST them money to do it.
This is a point that is kind of loss. It cost Jimmy and the shareholders less money and they could have done this the legitimate way.
>Even though Howard’s death wasn’t directly their fault, they deserve to be haunted by i
You associate with the drug cartel, you bring danger to everyone you know. That's what being in the game is.
I know, which is why I didn’t just say it wasn’t their fault. They associated with the cartel, and Howard wouldn’t have been there if they hadn’t ruined his life. But it’s not like they knew Lalo would be there. They couldn’t have predicted that.
i would agree they arent DIRECTLY responsible for his death, only Lalo is directly repsonsible. They are definitely indirectly repsonsible for it by being the reason that Howard ends up being in the same room as Lalo
Howards fault for not leaving. Howards fault for not hiring Jimmy a long time ago. Howards fault for putting Kim in doc review and not given her the case she brought to the firm. Howards fault for being a part of the recording against Jimmy. Howards fault for not settling the case sooner.
Howard offered Jimmy a job as soon as he could, Chuck was the one preventing Jimmy from working at HHM. Howard was a dick to Kim with doc review but that was because Jimmy made him look like an ass for recommending Jimmy to D&M and Kim couldve worked her way out of doc review but its not like it hamperred her career. Howard was also dead as soon as he saw Lalo, there was no getting out alive from that. and im not sure why not settling the suit quickly and going for the largest settlement possible justifies what Jimmy and Kim did to him. Some fucking people on this sub are fuckin weird with how they are trying to make Howard the bad guy instead of Kim/Jimmy
Can't we all just blame this on Sweet Dee and make her pay for the damages?
How is a bird supposed to make money to pay for this
No need to curse at me. It's just a TV show.
Sorry I pointed out all of the reason's its Howard fault, did that hurt your feelings?
It’s not Howard’s fault at all, I’m confused how anyone would even think it is
**Choice road**... It applies to everyone in the show. Each choice leads you to where you are at today.
I was not *really* saying I think it's his fault, I was being devils advocate... I was just trying to show the bigger idea of that its always about choices for each character.
They did a little too much trolling though you gotta admit.
Am I the only one who hated Saul and Kim. I mean, Howard might be kind of a douche but not really a bad guy. Definitely didn't deserve what they did (not to mention being killed).
On the other hand I didn't mind Skylar as well so I seem to go against the norm.
You are definitely not the only one.
I like Kim a lot, but I see her relationship with Jimmy as deeply toxic, as her indulging a part of herself that she really needs to go to therapy about.
it would be fine for them to just celebrate normally, but then to immediately engage in that act because it turns them both on in a way shows how far they are truly fallen.
Kim always got turned on by these cons with Jimmy, all the way back to start of season 2 when they first pull the Viktor and Giselle trick. Not surprising.
Yeah, but the way it's presented in this episode is far less romantic and far more disturbing. Knowing that this scam literally ruined a man who did nothing wrong to them, and just seeing them out of focus on the couch makes it all feel so detached and unhinged vs. the truly romantic moment they had by the hotel pool after scamming Ken for a couple grand. It's the same allure, but far uglier now.
did nothing wrong to them? Howard had the share audacity to offer Jimmy a job. That is a truly evil thing he did to them and he deserved to have his life ruined for that
The job offer was too little too late. He only did it after feeling guilty.
He did it when he could, he could not offer Jimmy a job while the senior partner at the firm was dead set against Jimmy working there. Anyways, how does that justify what kim and jimmy did and how does that make his death his fault?
EDIT: To add on to this, since Howard could not offer him a job at HHM due to chuck being a dick he instead put his reputation on the line and recommended Jimmy for a job at D&M which Jimmy very quickly squandered
I never said anything justified anything. But if I was Jimmy I would have been insulted by the job offer.
ok sorry, you had replied to a different comment of mine as well so i got the 2 different comment chains mixed up
If if found out I was about to get a ton of money from my elaborate plan to get said money, I’d be pretty jazzed and wet too. Despite the nastiness of the plan.
they were turned on by the con, not the money. they were guaranteed to get the money at some point regardless of if they did the con or not
Thought I was the only one haha, that scene made me sick
Yeah I completely wrote off that they came up with the Howard plan when they were banging, It didn’t click with me till last night’s episode. The Leopold and Loeb comparison made by Howard shows he knew them so well.
I think the idea that a lot of people are going to stuggle with in the coming weeks/months is that Jimmy/Kim were *never* the good guys. We know what Saul turns into. We don't know what happens to Kim yet, but we'll see. But they were *never* characters that we should've been rooting for. We've just been watching a train and waiting for the wreck.
I think Kim was fine up until the finger guns at the end of season 5.
>They really do get off to this in a literal sense
Howard was right. They do "get off" the misery of Howard
I haven't mapped out all of their intimacy but I feel like they were fairly platonic early on, maybe a hug or a light kiss, and they only got shown fucking/heaving making out when they are on the cusp of destroying dude's lives.
That scene is hilarious idk what your on about
Bad take. Walt’s behavior does much, much more harm to the society than Kim and Jimmy combined (at least for now). You think meth is just some blue candy? That shit ruins families and cause deaths.
Also Jim and Kimmy won't be able to kill someone they are just scammers childish who don't estimate the scale of their actions and risks involved but scammers
Walt could have saved Jane.
There is some reasoning for that though. Jesse’s life took a downturn when he became involved with Jane, and the road they were going down could’ve easily resulted in Jesse ODing. At the very least, Walt felt sympathy for Jane, but Jimmy and Kim don’t show any remorse for ruining Howard’s name.
Walt gets off on doing evil shit as much as Kim or Jimmy do. his libido comes back in S1 when he starts cooking meth and exercising power. he even attempts to rape his own wife. he tells her during the finale that he enjoyed "it" - wether that's crime, exercising power, making poison idk. but of course he got a deserved death
Wow, that's totally messed up.
Poisoning a child? Fine if it is goal oriented.
A series of humiliating pranks that **results** in the pranked getting litterally millions of dollars? Unforgiveable. Kill them.
Okay let's not get ahead of ourselves. Walt was 10x worse than Kim and Jimmy combined.
I think the point that the poster was making is that Walt did some (not all) of his morally questionable decisions out of survival. Making meth, letting Jane die, ordering Jesse to kill Gale, poisoning Brock, bombing an old folks' home, calling Jack over to the desert. That doesn't excuse or exonerate Walt from how therrible those actions are, of course.
However, what Jimmy and Kim did, it's just that there's really no reason for them to do so in the grand scheme of things other than just to mess with Howard. Ultimately, Walt is more harmful to society than the Jimmy and Kimmy are, but the poster's original point about the motivation behind their actions still stands.
Walt was making meth because he liked being the best at something, not because he needed to for his survival
Walts shit was all done because he enjoyed being the best meth cook in the world and he had to do that to continue being the best meth cook in the world, his "goal" isnt any better than Jimmy and Kims goal of getting off on a con to ruin howard
Walt tries to coerce Skylar into sex by showing off that he's a big bad kingpin now. His goal was always just to compensate for his feelings of inadequacy--same motive as Jimmy.
Spot on. I thought it was a little bit out of character/series, but in reality Jimmy and Kim are the petty villains here, and sometimes we collectively forget about that
It seems everyone thought they were watching an episode of Little House on the Prairie...
Howard has always been my friend.
The tugboat will never be the same without him
Joe Dawg is really upset I hear 😔
I don't know if I've ever felt this bad for a character death.
I felt pretty bad after episode 3.
Hard to be friends with a dead man
I never hated Howard. Made me sick to see that ending
ITT: A lot of people not realizing that Jimmy and Kim were never meant to be seen as heroes or righteous people.
This show isn’t a heroes story. It’s a villain origin story.
Just because the audience knows the destination doesn’t mean we can’t be appalled (in a good way- it’s fantastic writing) by the journey. The writers job is to elicit emotions- by showing Jimmy and Kim’s descent from understandable, flawed but more or less ‘good’ people to who they are now… we’re able to empathise but ultimately condemn (when points of no returns are crossed).
This is probably my second favourite episode, behind Chicanery. But man oh man do I hate Jimmy and Kim now lol
so we all knew this show was about Jimmy turing into the Saul Goodman we know from Breaking Bad, but it really could have gone any direction for Kim.
Not sure anyone doesn’t realize that, dude.
Honestly I felt so angry with them this episode, feel bad that I was rooting for Jimmy to succeed in his antics against Howard before
Howard was legit a pompous ass in the first season. He comes from money and got everything handed to him (as he admits in his final scene). His initial olive branches to Jimmy are kinda shitty, coming from this place of superiority and condescension. And Kim makes a great point to Howard when he comes to Jimmy and confesses that he thinks Chuck's death was a suicide--that Howard was being selfish putting that on Jimmy. So Jimmy and Kim's animosity toward him are initially justified. But after Chuck's death, Howard goes through a lot of soul searching and tries to be better. And at that point Jimmy and Kim are hanging onto their old image of Howard because it feels good to hate him, to make him the bad guy. They always justify their schemes as taking down someone who deserves it... but at a certain point they are holding onto that justification when it isn't just, because they crave the feeling of power.
I'm actually never going to look at Jimmy and Kim the same way ever again. Going to such lengths to ruin Howard's life was one thing but they've indirectly got him killed now and that's unforgivable. Lalo might have pulled the trigger but Jimmy and Kim are the ones that caused this.
We've always known that Jimmy would turn into a scumbag, but Kim following suit is shocking for sure. She was more at fault than Jimmy was for this.
It's been a very long time since I watched Breaking Bad, so I'm much more used to the Jimmy McGill we've been following in this show. For Kim though, I think this is definitely the event that'll make her regret everything she's done and back out of this business. If she can even live with herself, that is, which I don't see how she could after this.
the same Walter lived with himself after killing Emilio, Krazy 8, Gale /indirectly/, Hank /indirectly/, Jane, Gus, Mike and so on. If he can do it, then Saul and Kim can too
Emilio, Krazy, Gale, Gus, and Mike were all criminals heavily involved in the drug game and most of them were threats to Walt and Jesse. Walt could have justified that as "just part of the job/survival". Jane was just some chick he didn't like but he shows signs of remorse later on, and we saw how Hank's death affected him.
Kim has never been involved with murder until now. Plus, Howard was completely uninvolved in the criminal world. It's like she was living two completely different lives and they finally collided in the most brutal way possible. On top of all that, she has very personal ties to this character. She said an episode or two ago that she owes everything she has to Howard. It all started at HHM for her. Appropriate that it all ends with Howard's death as she tries to find a way out of the game.
Saul seems to be doing pretty fine during the BB era but we don't really see his life from behind the scenes so who knows if he has trouble sleeping at night. I imagine he suffers moreso from paranoia than guilt.
Walt cant justify shit... his only motivation was, and I quote him "I did it for me, I was good at it... I was alive". Pretty much the same motivation behind characters like Saul Goodman, Kim Wexler or even Tony Soprano
Right but I'm not justifying Walt's actions. I'm talking about what Walt would have told himself to justify his actions. Circumstances are different for Kim so she won't be able to hide behind her self-righteousness.
Yep. This is straight up Kim’s fault. If she told Jimmy that Lalo was alive, they could’ve hidden, or stayed quiet, held off their plotting at the very least until the coast is clear. But she had to play puppet master, controlling Jimmy and lying to him, just so she could keep him on track in ruining Howard’s life. She deserves no happy ending. I know Saul makes it clear because he’s in breaking bad, but I look forward to Kim’s karmic justice after this.
Yeah exactly. I don't know why people are refusing to acknowledge how Kim is more responsible in this case. Jimmy wouldn't even have left his room let alone do the scheme if he knew Lalo was still alive. It's pretty clear that she didn't tell Jimmy because then he would stop going along with this plan she literally gets off on. She has a literal addiction to this and has been feeling emboldened since 5x09, because she got away with it, but she hasn't seen what Jimmy did when he was out in the desert.
I was waiting for someone to make this meme lmaoo
Yeah, as far as Jimmy and Kim go—I hope they pay for this. They may not have killed Howard but they led him to his execution.
Not only that, i hate Lalo now.. the whole season i was like "where is he? i miss him" "oh Lalo finally! I hope they don't kill him", now i'm like, fucking die already 😡
I mean that's how Lalo is though. I'm just grateful they didn't show him skinning Casper alive or whatever it is he did to make sure he said all he knew.
Well I mean hating the murdering drug baron is nothing out of the ordinary I hope.
My point is that i didn't want him to die, he's one of my favorite characters but the killing of Howard was a gut punch.
If he dies, it will be so satisfying.
Gus fring redemption arc
Yeah, Lalo is just so damn charming. I find myself rooting for him for a minute sometimes before being like "oh wait no this guy is a legit monster."
Been on Howard's side for the entire season. The guy did absolutely nothing wrong to deserve this.
I ended the friendship with Wexler and McGill a long time ago. Seriously, I don't like them anymore, they are terrible human beings.
I always love BB Saul but now I hate last episode's Saul and Kim
I’m not one for kink shaming, but yeah, I gotta kink shame Saul/Kim here- imagine getting off on hearing someone’s reputation is ruined
> imagine getting off on hearing someone’s reputation is ruined
They didnt get off on hearing his rep was ruined, they got off on being the driving force behind his rep getting ruined and listening to him self destruct live because of their actions
Yeah you’re right but that’s still messed up
i mean its even more fucked up than what you had said
Everything Chuck said sounds so true and accurate after that episode now.
The whole episode I was just saying get the fuck out of there don't squander the opportunity for this. She is fucked up as well don't know who to root for really anymore Mike is the only soul I genuinely want to see unharmed in all this circus.
Yeah I really hope they don’t kill off Mike
I never thought I would be so sad for Howie. God dammit.
Please someone tell me again why they're doing all of this against Howard? I forgot since last season is so long ago
Simple answer: Early settlement money, get money to older folks before they die
Deeper answer: Howard's downfall was mainly driven by Kim, Saul was just along for the ride. Moreover, in [season 5, episode 10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wErPFrnK0A0&ab_channel=EverythingBetterCallSaul) Howard felt the need to tell Kim how to manage her career and warned her about Jimmy, which amused her. Kim was tired of serving big interests such as banks and large law firms because she didn't feel that work fulfilling. Pro bono law was the line of work that she liked and Howard basically spit on the concept of helping lower-income families (Kim probably empathizes with lower-income folk, as she probably would have represented her younger self). This ignited hate for Howard within Kim that she suppressed. Jimmy would fuck with Howard for fun; Kim wanted to destroy him. That's why in the same episode, Kim's new goal is to do "[something unforgivable](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8mdAjVIRFk&ab_channel=ChaosClips)" to Howard. Hence, she rejected her important lunch meeting to make sure his downfall was evident.
Damn, so petty
Yeah after this I hope both of them get what's coming to them, but we know it won't happen to Saul
We know it won't happen to Saul up through the ending of BrBad. However, we DO NOT know what happens to Gene....
Like my mom always used to say, “you can’t touch the Schnauz, biatch.”
Howard isnt in a position to have a best friend
Oh my god I just watched the episode poor Howard 😭
This sub is making me feel like a psycho. I’m more gutted for Kim and Jimmy than I am for Howard lmao and that boys fucking dead.
I love this meme
Fuck Jimmy and Kim, all of my homies hate Jimmy and Kim
It’s like when I stopped rooting for Walt after he killed Mike.
Justice for Howard, my boy.